You’re on episode 19 of the ‘Business Made Easy’ podcast, let’s do this Mia.
You’re on the ‘Business Made Easy’ podcast, where we make business easy.
Here’s your host, Jason Skinner.
G’day, g’day guys. Jason here from the ‘Business Made Easy’ podcast, where
we make business easy. I hope you’re well out there, only two weeks until the
Christmas break for 2017. That’s exciting, I always love this time of year and
it’s coming around really fast. Whatever you’re up to in business, I hope
you’re doing well and things are pumping along for you. For those of you, who
have subscribed to the show and left reviews, thank you so much. It really
does mean the world and I really do appreciate that feedback because it does
help me shape the content and know what to bring you and make sure that
I’m bringing you valuable content that’s really going to help you to grow your
If you haven’t done that already and you’d like to, please drop me an email to
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honest review there as well. I’ll always read those and take all that feedback
on board as well. Thank you.
Today we have got a very great guest, Ian Paget. Last week we spoke with
Greg Merrilees from Studio 1 Design all about web design and the elements
of great web design. And this week we’re talking with Ian Pag
founder of a business called ‘Logo Geek’ in the UK and Ian is an absolute whiz
when it comes to getting your brand identity right and the elements that you
really need to have a great logo. It’s not just a picture, as he describes. It’s not
just a picture that you’ve, a fancy picture that you’ve put on your letterhead.
There’s a lot of science and psychology etcetera that goes into getting that
right logo for your business and making sure it resonates with your target
So, we have a fantastic talk about all things logo. I won’t delay any further
here’s the chat that I had with Ian Paget.
Hello everybody and welcome to the show and today I have got Ian Paget, all
the way from the UK. Ian’s joining us and g’day Ian, how are you going?
Hey I’m good. It’s so good to speak to you, I mean we’ve been speaking online
for a while now, so it’s good to finally, actually meet.
Yeah it is, mate. Look, you’ve got a fascinating business, it’s in logo design
.. graphic design. So tell us about what it is that you do at ‘Logo Geek’ and how
you came, a bit of a background in how you got into that?
Okay so ‘Logo Geek’ is basically a business where I work on logos for clients
of companies of different sizes and as part of that, I also run a community as
well for anyone that’s interested in logos. At the moment, it’s a part-time
venture but I do think, the way that things are going is very, very likely to
become my full-time gig and we’ll see how it goes. It’s probably worth giving
you a little bit of background of where this originated from.
I’ve always worked for agencies over the last ten years and during that time,
I’ve liked to challenge myself with projects on the side of my job. And the
reason why I’ve always done that is so that I can improve my skills and
practice things that I think that I’m not necessarily very good at. When I first
started, it was things that I just wanted to do so it was anything like movie
posters or illustrations or CD covers.
Yeah, I mean at one point I actually worked on an iPhone game which was
pretty cool. I’ve always enjoyed working on side projects but I got to this
point where I started being quite interested in logos. It was something I was
doing in my job at that time, but if you can imagine it was only ever once a
month if that. And every single time I started a new project, I felt like I needed
to retrain my skills and I found it a little bit frustrating. In my free time I
decided “okay, I want to work on logos more frequently so that I could
I thought the best place to start would be to register a domain and at that
time, I literally wrote down a list of every single possible option I could think
of. And I went through the list and at that point, there was hardly anything
available. Well, there was nothing, everything I searched for, it wasn’t
available. But I got to a point where I typed in logogeek.co. uk and it was
there, so that’s where the name originated from. It was purely because of the
.. was available. But I had always planned this to be just a side project
because, in terms of my career, I wanted to keep moving up the ladder.
Maybe work for an agency and then become a creative director and just keep
working up the ladder and work for agencies. But ‘Logo Geek’, it grew slowly.
In the beginning, I was just doing things for friends and family and any time I
did a logo, I would put it on the website and if there was anything I was
interested in writing about, I’d write a blog. I also started just posting
anything and I was, that I found interesting, onto Facebook and Twitter and I
kept working on that. And I just got to a point where I got a real client, wh
because I was trying to do these two things at once. And just over a year ago,
I plucked up the courage to hand in my notice. Because I decided I need to
give this a go, because it’s growing really quickly and you can see the, there’s
obviously something to it that I personally wanna push forward.
And yeah, when I handed in my notice, my boss offered me part time and that
felt like a real win-win situation.
So, yeah that was only just over a year ago now. Probably about a year and a
half and I’ve been very busy taking on projects and just trying to grow the
business so taking on more projects, more diverse projects. Not just logos
now, I’m trying to branch out into branding and packaging and stuff like that
and increase my client base. But also grow the community side of it and start
monetizing it as well, so I recently started a podcast.
And that podcast, I was able to get sponsorship for so I feel like there are two
potential revenue streams. Like I said, long-term I think ‘Logo Geek’ is very
likely to be my full-time gig and hopefully just keep growing the way that it is.
Yeah, that’s nice. And it’s interesting you’ve found a passion for something
and gravitated towards that which, I think quite often. I know when I’m
passionate about something, I always do my best work or it’s what I spend
the most time on, doing that thing. It sounds like what’s happened in your
Yeah, it’s a funny thing because I’ve always liked hopping between different
projects and up until ‘Logo Geek’, all my side projects, I’d kind of start them
and never quite finish them and I’d keep hopping between different things.
But I think what’s really allowed me to focus, is the audience that I’ve been
growing. So, if you could imagine on Twitter when I first started out, there
was obviously no one. But as you start to grow up, you actually start to grow
a following and people have an expectation that you’re going to post more,
you become somewhat, you feel that you should keep posting.
And it’s a funny thing, like when I first started I probably only worked on
about 10 or 20 logos.
And I didn’t really know that much about it, I was just good at making pretty
pictures essentially. But I found, because of the group and because I’ve been
wanting to learn more and share more with the audience. I’ve been reading
so much, most of the books I read over the last few years, have been on logos,
branding; typography so now I feel like I’ve been faking it until I make it, to
some extent. And now I feel like I really know what I’m doing. There’s
obviously so much more that I can learn but it’s definitely a very specialist
skill set and I feel like I’m in a good place. And I’m pretty excited to see
It’s going to go.
.. it’s going to go, yeah.
It’s so nice, it’s so good.
Let’s, can we talk about your community for a moment because you we’re
saying earlier that eventually, and this is just a great example of how social
media can grow. But you were saying earlier that you started with no
following at all on Twitter and now you’re up around 90,000 followers, is that
Yeah, I could probably run through exactly what I did.
Yeah, that would be great.
The way I grew my audience, at the very beginning I actually used Facebook
and the reason why is because I thought it would be a good way to attract
clients. So 50% of everything I was earning, I decided to throw in as Facebook
advertising and I found quite early on that the people that were actually
following that group, wasn’t potential clients. It was other people like me,
people that are interested in logo and doing that didn’t feel like the right
thing. But what I did find at that point, is that I did enjoy finding resources
and sharing out there.
From a personal point of view, I just found it quite useful to have this
platform where I could share anything useful. I had a few people around me
that were kind of saying, “Oh, you should probably use Twitter.” And at that
point I didn’t really understand the value of Twitter, for me, I didn’t even use
it so I had no idea how it was supposed to work. But in my day job at that
point, we actually had someone come in that was a social media marketing
expert and they gave me a few tips for Twitter and I decided, “That sounds
good, I wonder if I could do what I’ve been doing on Facebook on Twitter.”
So at that point, I used a program called ‘Buffer’.
Oh yes, yeah.
And if for anyone not familiar, ‘Buffer’ is like an app that you can use on your
phone or on a website and post things in there and roll out at certain times of
the day. I made it my mission, every single day to post out twice. So on my
journey to work or whilst I’m eating breakfast, what I would do is find
interesting resources about logos and add them to my ‘Buffer’. And what that
meant is twice a day, every single day I was posting out interesting useful
content and that took a little bit of time to find places to go. But it doesn’t
take long to find a list of blogs and a list of places that, where you can find
So yeah, ‘Buffer’ was my main tool at the beginning but I also had a secret
weapon and it’s something sadly you can’t actually do now to the same
degree, because Twitter slightly changed it. But at that point, you’re talking
three or four years ago.
Twitter, you could literally go on, you could find accounts that were similar to
yours and you could click on their following list and it would order the
followers in the order that they had actually liked that account.
So you know that the people at the top of the list joined it in the last 24 hours,
so what I was doing at the very beginning and sadly it doesn’t work this way,
or Twitter changed it. You could actually go on to an account similar to yours,
go to their following list and just go follow, follow, follow, follow. Made it
really easy, so at the beginning, I was just finding accounts that was around
logos and following their followers and that worked really well for me at the
beginning. Like I said, you can’t do that now but whilst the opportunity was
there, I was following a high amount of people and about 50% of those people
was actually following back.
From day one I started that, the following numbers were going up.
By about 500 a week, it was an incredible growth rate. You can still do similar
things to that now.
You, for example, if someone posts something that’s similar to content that
you share, you can still see who’s liked that post and who’s retweeted that
post. So what you can do is, you can interact with those people, like them,
engage with them in some way so it’s quite easy with Twitter to find your
Like minded audiences, yeah.
Yeah, yeah it’s very easy. I think it’s worth mentioning a few kinds of caveats,
to make this work. So you have to obviously know what your account is
about. My Twitter page was about logos, I mean it’s called ‘Logo Geek’.
Yeah if you’re going to be, if you’re interested in logos, you’d follow ‘Logo
Geek’ so you’d expect logo design related content from ‘Logo Geek’. That’s
why you follow him so when you go on that profile page, you expect to see
information about logos and if it’s not, then people aren’t going to follow you.
How you present your profile, in terms of the profile image, the header image
and the content about you. That should be relevant to what your audience is
And your page, you present it well because it’s all very well following
someone but in order for them to follow back, they obviously need to be
interested in what you’re sharing.
Yeah and they need to and I think that message and that very important point
Ian, goes across all social media in general. I think if people are getting mixed
messaging about your branding then there’s no consistency there and no
relationship, is there?
You just made me think of another point, as well. When I first started my
account and I learnt it through Facebook as well. When I first had it I, the
profile image was actually a logo. And I decided at one point to change that to
a picture of me and I was quite surprised to find that more people were
engaging with the account when they thought it was a person versus a
company. So I learnt with especially Twitter, you’re more likely to engage
with an individual than a company. And that makes sense because you know
who’s at the other end.
And you’re only really going to engage with a company when it’s a huge
company and you want to complain. You’re rarely going to engage with
McDonalds, why would you send a message to McDonalds? You’re not going
to but you might engage with a CEO of McDonalds.
You’re more likely to engage with a human being, so one of my
recommendations for everyone. If you have a Twitter account, put a photo of
you. I think you’re more likely to get followers and engagement in that way.
That’s very interesting because I was actually looking at, wondering about
that very point the other day. Because I know with my Twitter account, it’s a
picture of my logo itself and I wondered whether or not that would actually
make a difference but you’ve just clarified that, so thank you. That’s
It is, I mean try it. You will find, especially if you ask peo
That’s fantastic and it’s true. I think in choosing that, you see validity in the
idea of choosing where your audience actually is hanging out. Because for
instance, some people, depending on your business, one of the things I like to
work with clients on is identifying who their actual real customer is, what do
they look like? Their target market audience and where are they hanging out,
majority hanging out?Is it Facebook, is it Twitter, is it Instagram or LinkedIn?
I know in the business space, LinkedIn can be, a lot of people have had a lot of
success with say LinkedIn. I personally haven’t found that as great but I think
finding where your people are hanging out and then choose that location as
your starting point, would that be right?
It’s a little bit different in my case because people hang out all over the
You don’t, I don’t just spend my time on Twitter. I don’t just spend my time on
Facebook, I kind of hop between lots of different accounts so I’ve got people
that have been following me on Twitter for years that now I’ve got the
Facebook group, which is only about six months old, they’re also very active
There’s, you’re making the assumption that that person is only on that one
account, only in that one place but I think the reality is that people use all of
these social media platforms but in different ways. I use Facebook because I
want to catch up with my friends.
I’ve always kept Facebook very personal, that’s where I post my holiday
pictures, that’s where I speak to my friends. I mean adding the groups onto
that is a clever thing because I was already spending time on Facebook and I
think a lot of people do and it’s a lot more personal. But something like
Twitter is almost like a news feed. You can follow things and find stories and
you can connect with pretty much anyone, it’s a very different platform and
people use them in different ways.
Like LinkedIn, I hardly ever go on LinkedIn unless I’m looking for a job.
It’s good for that, I’ve got a LinkedIn account and I sometimes check in and
just to make sure that it’s looking good. But at the end of the day, it’s in my
opinion, people that are active on there are the people that are just looking
for jobs because..
.. that’s the nature of the platform.
That’s how it started, wasn’t it? As a job..?
Yeah, I still very much see it that way. It’s a very corporate platform and
you’ve got a lot of salespeople on there that are using it to find CEOs and all
this sort of stuff and obviously, it’s perfect for that type of thing.
For me, logos, to be honest, if I went where I thought people were I’d
probably go on Instagram. But the reason why I haven’t been using Instagram
heavily is just because it takes time.
A tweet, most people think that they don’t have time to grow an audience but
I’ve been able to grow my Twitter audience in time when I’m not doing
anything else. So for example, if I’m waiting for a train or eating my breakfast,
I like to tinker with my phone.
I think a lot of people do now, they’ve got times through the day when they’re
not doing anything else and that’s the time where you can find a decent blog
post and within 30 seconds. You can download an image from that post, you
can copy the link, you can copy the title, copy paste into ‘Buffer’ or directly
into Twitter itself and post it. And that’s time that you wouldn’t be doing
anything else anyway. So with Twitter, I found it’s very, very easy to actually
actively share content easily without wasting too much time on it. But if you
want to start using YouTube and Instagram and stuff like that, it’s very much
more of a content production, so you have to dedicate time to it.
The quality of your image really matters.
Yeah, yeah it does. Yeah.
And the hashtags that you’re using and, do hashtags matter as much in
Twitter do you think?
I know Instagram, every single blog post I’ve read it highly recommends to
spam it basically with tags. But Twitter, I think the shelf life of a tweet is very
limited and adding tags, hashtags to a tweet make it searchable to some
degree and you can be pretty savvy with it. Because sometimes tweets,
hashtags are trending and if you can make a post that’s relevant to that
trending hashtag then you’re probably going to get more engagement.
I’ve seen a couple of agencies out there, for when say ‘Game of Thrones’ is
They know that ‘Game of Thrones’ is going to be trending, obviously a new
series is coming out. Episode one is coming out, people know when that’s
coming out and normally your first episode comes out, it’s probably going to
be trending because a lot of people are going to be watching it. So what they
did is, the agency created a load of content specific for ‘Game of Thrones’.
And obviously posted it out at the right time, put the hashtag on there and
they got a whole load of engagement from people that were specifically
searching for tweets around ‘Game of Thrones’.
Or it could be an event if you go to some kind of big event and you take
photos there. You can post it and put the hashtag for the event on there and
then anyone else that’s at that event, they’re going to see those posts that
are hashtagged. But obviously, if you’re like me and your page is about logos,
it would be a bit weird to be at some random event and try and leverage that
hashtag. It doesn’t make sense.
Yeah, there’s no connection.
Yeah you have to be intelligent with how you use hashtags and use them in
Very good. So you’ve done well, it’s an amazing following and community that
you’ve built up. I’ve just been going through your Twitter feed and you’ve
done, that’s in five years to build it up to 90,000 followers.
Yeah, pretty much. It’s been about four or five years. I mean, obviously when I
started it I wasn’t doing a great deal with it. But at least for the last four
years, I’ve been focusing quite heavily on it and I made it very much part of
my daily routine. I don’t even think about it, literally, it is in the morning when
I’m having my breakfast, I’ll post something and sometimes like a story might
come up. Like recently, we had the F1 logo that was the new logo came out
and obviously, that’s pretty big. That’s probably the biggest logo story of the
year, so I was waiting for that to come out and started posting as soon as I
know the news, I was posting out there.
And that tweet where I shared some images that one blog kind of posted out,
that tweet got about four to five hundred likes.
Which is very, very high for a tweet but that was all ad-hoc. I’m not using any
tools like ‘Buffer’ or stuff like that, because I wanted it to be immediate but
any time I know anything like that’s coming out, I want to be the first person
to be sharing that story. I post it in the Facebook community and I post it on
Twitter and Facebook group and stuff like that. When it’s a big story like that,
you get a lot of buzz like everyone wants to talk about it, comment about it
and stuff like that.
It’s time-consuming when that type of thing happened, yeah.
So you still use ‘Buffer’ as your main..?
To be honest, I’ve actually stopped using any of the tools and I use Twitter
directly. There’s no reason for that other than the fact that it’s so much a
routine for me that I post pretty frequent throughout the day anyway. And
adding a tool that makes my Twitter feed look like a robot, I don’t really like
that idea. I don’t like how these tools are minimising the links and stuff like
that. I do like the more natural look of the feed, so that’s the only reason why
I’m posting on a daily basis, directly into Twitter. Just because I’m passionate
about logos and I’m reading this stuff all the time and I like sharing stuff. But
if you do prefer to organise all of your social media stuff on a Monday and
have it all scheduled, obviously these tools are good for that but I’ve just got
comfortable posting directly into..
It’s part of your routine.
.. Twitter and the group. Yeah, I’ve just made a routine, as long as I post daily
I’m not too worried. The numbers are growing, the community’s growing. I’ve
got it to a point that I wanted it originally and it’s just a case of keeping the
fire going, so to speak.
Nice, you’ve done really, really well at it.
I know, I use a program called ‘CoSchedule’ to do my posts. It’s more of a time
management thing for me, in the sense that I can, I generally do all my stuff in
one day. That I try and schedule it in over the coming week but just for purely
time but yeah. That’s fantastic what you’ve done there and can we cross over
to talking about logo design for a moment?In terms of, for businesses and the
importance, ‘cause you’ve got some ideas about the importance of the quality
of your logo and etcetera in business.
Yeah okay, so the purpose of a logo is to identify you so that’s probably the
most prominent purpose. But also people make a first impression of you, in
some cases based on your logo. If you were to meet someone face to face,
that’s fine because they make judgements based on your appearance. But a
lot of the time, the first point of entry into your business is a logo. That’s how
businesses communicate who they are, through a logo. That logo needs to
represent who you are, your characteristic and different features like that.
It’s very important from that perspective to have that logo right from the
I think it’s worth, I want to tell you a quick story. I went to a networking event
a couple of weeks back and I spoke to lots of different people and one of the
first people that I spoke to, they gave me their business car. And I’ll be
honest, the business card was rubbish. It was on a very weak piece of paper.
And the logo was, it looked quite unprofessional.
And the guy first told me, “Oh I just had that done on ‘Fiver’, it’s just a cheap
thing.” And my opinion…
Did you say it shows?
It felt, I literally had to tell him that it looks very unprofessional.
And this guy was a property investor or something like that, someone that’s
got a business that’s actually going to be making a decent income. If you’re
going around to an event and meeting people for the first time..
.. and you’re giving them this card.
I just think it gives a bad impression and you know what? I got that card and
I’ve got it in my deck, I’ve got a little stack of cards. Every time I see it, I’m like,
“uhh”, and it just looks so unprofessional. It’s hard to take that guy seriously,
it’s kind of laughable and even if he was to get that redesigned. I’m never
going to forget that was the guy with the horrible clipart logo, it just, it makes
you judge someone in a certain way. I think you have to get it right from the
outset because people make opinions and opinions matter.
Why spend money on a nice suit, a nice haircut and going into one of these
networking events to meet people and then hand out this shoddy looking
piece of paper with clipart on it that just makes you look like a clown. If you’re
a property investor, you want to look serious. I mean there are obviously
these cheaper options out there and I’m not saying that they don’t work,
‘cause sometimes they might work if you’re lucky. But in that case, that guy,
I’ll be honest, he looked, when I, I laugh when I see the card and it’s hard not
to think of the guy as a little bit of a wannabe and a little bit of a clown. And
even if he was to redesign it, my opinion of that person is lowered purely
because he spent five dollars on their logo, which is a shame.
You’re so right, it’s that first impression and even if, you just touched on a
point there. Even if he now goes and gets those cards redone and gives you a
new one, your first impression has already been set.
My first impression has been set and I’m thinking, “Oh you’re the cheapskate
that got your logo on ‘Fiver’.” Yeah.
So he’s got to bring you back somehow now.
Yeah, he really does.
I think that’s so important, it’s a real balance between, we talked about this
earlier but when you’re starting out you don’t have the budget necessary to
go and employ a designer. Or have it properly done and there are plenty of
tools, free tools that really lead into doing this free stuff. And ‘Fiver’
particularly, you mentioned there, which for those of you that don’t know
what ‘Fiver’ is, it’s a contracting service isn’t it? That you can just basically pay
five dollars or a fee to have someone, somewhere design something for you
and quite cheaply. But the product, as you say comes out very cheap as well. I
haven’t had a great deal of success on ‘Fiver’, it’s good for fun stuff but not for
serious business stuff.
But yeah, that first impression is so important. That reminds me of a
tradesman that goes and hand paints the sign on the side of their car
themselves, and they get those stencil sheets and then, I don’t know if you’ve
seen that in the UK but sort of over here in Australia, they just do their own
sign on the side of their car, versus someone who’s got a properly designed
logo. Makes a huge difference.
You can always tell the difference, can’t you?
I understand it because a lot of these tools, they’re good to do the job. If you
are literally starting out and you have nothing, obviously you need some kind
of logo to get started. So if you’ve literally got no budget whatsoever and you
want to get started, then you’ve got no option but to use these free tools. But
I think if you do want to take it seriously, logo design and branding, in
particular, is very important.
And there’s actually a book I want to recommend and it’s a book called ‘Zag’.
It’s by a guy called Marty, I think I might be saying his name wrong but it’s
Marty Neumeier, I think that’s how you pronounce the surname. And it’s
called ‘Zag’ and what I like about this, is it runs through how you should
create a brand. A lot of people think a logo design is a brand but a logo design
is just one component of a brand.
A brand, I like the saying, “A brand is what people say about you when you’re
not in the room”.
It’s like what I was saying about that guy with the ‘Fiver’ one.
That was bad, you know. You know, those opinions really matter. If you think
a company, in reality, a company or a brand, it doesn’t really exist. It’s actually
something that’s kind of fabricated in your mind. So all those little
interactions with a brand, all those touch points with a business in some way.
That creates like a little file in your mind of how you see that business and
you can’t directly control that but you can kind of influence it and that’s
where brand identity comes into play.
If you are starting out, I recommend reading that book. There’s one..
I’ll put a link in the show notes for it as well.
Yeah, there’s one part in there. I like this part where it runs through the what,
how, who, where and why of your business and there’s one example of where
it’s got like this wine bar. This wine bar is the only chain of wine bars that
builds a community around education for men and women of drinking age in
cities of progressive towns in the US, who want to learn more about wine in
an area of cultural awakening. It runs through specifics and what you can do
is you can create an identity around that, that specifically targets a very
specific or didn’t know exactly who the competition are.
A logo is just one part of a bigger system and if you can use that book and
kind of plan. That’s when you can work towards building that brand and that
logo is just one part of that bigger picture.
Interesting, it’s so important and I think, so ‘Zag’ is the book.
There’s another one called ‘The Brand Gap’ and ‘Zag’ is the second part of
that. If you really wanted to get into it, you can. But what I like about Marty’s
books is that they’re very thin and they get straight to the point. So you can
actually read that book on like a two-hour plane journey if you wanted to.
And I find it if you’re a business owner…
That book will inspire you and you’ll be able to do all of the legwork to then
go on to someone that’s going to create your logo for you and you can give a
better direction to them as well.
Yep. Well, that was a question I was going to ask. Sorry.
No go for it.
Yeah there was a question I was going to ask is, if I am starting out, what sort
of things would you recommend in terms of, if you are on a budget and you’re
looking to do a logo. Basically starting with that book, you would recommend
as a starting point, would be a good start?
Yeah I think, I mean there’s lots of different books out there and there’s lots
of different advice but I think if you’re serious about building a long-term
business that’s going to add value I’d recommend that book because what it
allows you to do is think about your business rather than just, you’re a
company that makes this widget. You can actually think more intelligently
about how you’re gonna be different from the competition. How you can,
how you’re going to stand out, who you’re going to target and stuff like that.
Rather than just kind of target everyone.
That book allows you to think about who you’re going to be targeting and
what you’re going to be doing. And that steers everything else, you’ll be able
to create a brand statement that will dictate how your business should look,
how it should communicate, how it should interact with people, what it
should do. It’s a thin book, it’s not going to take you long to read but once you
kind of have that, what you can then do, is when you do need that logo or that
identity. You know how it should look and you know how it should feel
because you got that plan already there.
I think when you really are starting out, if you literally do not have any money
whatsoever, obviously these free tools are there but just be aware that
you’re not going to get any guidance. There’s the risk that, the free sites they
use stock icons. So those stock icons might do the job but if you’re going to be
doing packaging and other stuff like that, if you’ve got plans to create a bigger
company, logos going to very quickly not be right for you. Because there will
be other businesses out there in the world that will have that identity. So
literally, you might end up going outside one day and seeing your logo on
someone else’s business because there are only so many stock icons.
That’s right and that’s..
I mean what we like about the free option.
What’s that sorry?
Sorry, keep going.
I know, I was just going to say the…
Are you still there?
I think it might’ve dropped out there, it’s okay we’ll keep talking.
kay, ask your question.
With respect to the free option, there’d be nothing worse than building your
business up and getting it out there. Like you mentioned, packaging those
sort of things and you’re really going well and you’re growing and then
someone slaps a lawsuit on you or a cease and desist notice because you’re
using copyrighted material, that can be a problem as well, I guess.
Yeah, I mean I would also bear in mind as well that if you are getting business
cards, signs, packaging, labels all this sort of stuff. If you are getting that done,
there’s a cost to that so this temporary logo that’s just going to do the job.
Bearing in mind that the cost you’re saving at the beginning, at some point
you’re going to have to get all of your business cards done, all of your signs
done and all of your packaging. You’re going to have to everything redone
again anyway, so long term it might actually be more expensive to have
something that does the job. And also if you think about the main purpose of
a logo is to identify, so if people become familiar with that logo and then you
You’re going to cause confusion to your potential customer, so people
remember colours and shapes and form quicker than they do names. So
sometimes you might be shopping online and you look on a website, you
might totally forget what it’s called but when you land on it again, you’re like,
“Oh yeah, I remember that one it’s got the yellow squiggle on it”, or
The golden arches.
Yeah people remember shapes quicker than anything, so if you start off and
you’ve got like a butterfly icon for the sake of it and then you have this whole
rebranding exercise done a year later. Obviously, people are going to
remember you for that butterfly icon so they might, there’s going to be some
confusion at a later point anyway. With the free tools, like I said they
generally do the job but you risk looking like somebody else and being
honest, a lot of the time these things don’t look great. You don’t get any
advice from them so if you’ve got a good eye, you might be lucky and you
might pick one out but even in that case, even if you do pick something that
looks good, you run the risk of using a stock icon that someone else has. So, if
you’re going to take this route, I’d just do it for the beginning and to just keep
you going and then once you do have some cash, I’d invest in finding someone
that can do a proper job for you to create something. To work with someone
that’s going to create an identity for you, that’s going to attract the right
audience and to compete with the competition and so.
Because when you do it yourself, if you’re savvy and you do the work what
you can do is, you can look at all your competition. Make sure to create an
identity that looks different to your competition. To give you an example, if
you are a company and you make cola, you’ve got Pepsi and Coca-Cola and so
on. If you were to bring out a brand that was blue, or a brand that was red,
people already associate those colours with either Pepsi or Coca-Cola. So if
you did a red can of drink, your gut reaction is, “Oh, that’s Coca-Cola.”
So it causes confusion, so you don’t want that. You want to look different.
And ‘cause there’s a whole psychology around colours too, isn’t there?
In terms of..
I mean there’s psychology of colours as well, there’s typography have
personality as well. So for example, you’ve got sans serif typeface with the
little legs on, they tend to look older fashioned. But slab serif where its serif
but they’re flat, they tend to look more modern. Certain types of typefaces
generally have a personality to it and you can make a judgement on here that
company is by how it looks.
I think that moves onto another risk of doing it yourself, via free tools. You
risk, I’ve lost my train of thought, give me a second. You risk, I’ve totally
I’m sorry, I’m reading something on my wall and I lost my train of thought.
That’s alright. Yeah, so you’re talking about the type of font that you choose
whether it’s sans serif or slab serif and risking..
Oh yeah, sorry. So you risk coming across in the wrong way and attracting the
And what that means, if you’re attracting the wrong customer, you could
spend all of your time marketing to them. You could keep marketing but then
you could get the wrong customer coming through your door. So that’s
wasting time on telesales and stuff like that, so people might see your
business and think, “Oh, they’re really high end, very nice business,” and this
and this and then you go in and go, “Oh, you’re actually a cheaper shop, I
wasn’t expecting that.”
There’s a mish-mash between what I was expecting..
And the person come and then they leave, so you need to have that match so
.. see your logo, it should match with the business once you enter into it.
So if there’s that disconnect, as a business owner you might end up just
spending a whole load of time and money dealing with the wrong people
because you’ve attracted the wrong people. And also customers generally
drive the products that you do, I’ve worked for companies where if everyone
coming in doesn’t have a thousand pound, they’ve only got a hundred pound,
they start creating products for the hundred pounds. So can actually steer
your business in the wrong way as well. So you need to bear that in mind that
this tiny, I know it’s a simple icon but if it is attracting the wrong people, it
could be a costly mistake.
Yeah, that’s exactly right. I think it’s that congruency of message to your
target customer and that’s why it’s so important to understand exactly from
the outset, who is your target customer. It drives everything in your business
and I’ve seen it so many times, particularly in communities that I’ve been
involved in, where people do a logo for free, they do it themselves and then
they’re asking, “Does this look good?”
And I guess what you’re telling me is, it doesn’t really matter what it looks like
It’s what appeals to your customer does it hit their psychology, in terms..
.. is it bright colours for their psychology to trigger a response to trigger them
to feel something when they see that colour? And then the style of the font, is
it saying you’re an old-fashioned business, is it saying you’re really modern,
high-class business? That can all have a bearing as well, is that a good
summary of what you were saying?
Yeah, I think you made a very good point there, is that even in instances
where you do work with someone like myself, if I’ve done logos for you. So
what sometimes happens is that people will take it, take the logos and then
they show it to all their friends and family. And they might ask the wrong
question, like the wrong question is, “Do you like this?” or, “What do you
think of this?”
I’m going to give you an example, like a stapler, if I give you a stapler and ask
you what you think of it. You might think, “Oh, it’s quite heavy. It’s quite
clunky. It’s a little bit boring. I don’t really like black. I don’t like the shape. I
don’t like how it’s got all these metal pieces, you know it looks very industrial.
I don’t like it.” So that’s the type of response that you’re going to get when
you ask, “Do you like this?” Because you’re going to get personal judgement
but I was to ask you, “Is this product, can I manufacture this product quickly
and cheaply so that I can sell it for the value of two ninety-nine at a retail
store?” My answer will be yes and be like, “Is the mechanism within this, can it
be mass produced to use a stock staple that are cheaply produced, blah blah
You know you get the idea. You ask specific questions and specific feedback,
you’re going to get yes or no. So suddenly that object that I asked someone,
“Do you like this?” It goes from being an instance where you’re getting
subjective feedback to the instance where people are agreeing that from a
strategic point of view, that a stapler is actually a successful product. And I
guess going back to logos, if you do present with, “Do you like this?” someone
might just not like blue. They’re like, “Can you make it orange?” just because
they like orange. But if you were to ask, “Does this business represent me in
this way? Does this target this audience? Does this make you feel this way?” If
you ask specific questions that are based on your business goals..
.. that’s the best way of getting feedback. And if you are doing it yourself,
that’s how you can do it in the right way because you wanna represent your
business in the right way. It’s not about what you think of it or what your
friends think of it, it’s about, it’s more of a strategic tool.
That needs to fulfill certain goals and if you can meet those goals, it’s got
nothing to do with subjective opinion it’s a tool that’s going to be successful
for you or not.
Yeah, yeah. It’s just so important.
Many years ago, I was a signwriter when I first started out after school and
the same thing, when you paint a sign it was always to create that emotion in
people when they came to that business. It ticked the boxes, it said so much
about that business and what you’re saying there is just make sure it aligns
with your business goals and it’s going to trigger that response, so yeah,
Yeah, absolutely. Like I said if you do consider it as part of the brand, as part
of a bigger picture then that brand that you can create, kind of dictates
everything that you do. So for example, if you are all about quality, that
business card that you get needs to be on heavy stock, it needs to look really
high end. That pen that you get, you can’t just get the cheapest, nastiest pens
you need to get the best pens. You need to choose all of your touch points
carefully and everything that you do about with your business, it needs to
align with your brand so that people’s opinion of you. That little box in
people’s heads, that’s what you’re impacting so if you do something that
doesn’t align with that.
Like if Apple, for example, if Apple bought out something that was on thin,
shoddy piece of paper you’re going to think, “That’s a bit rubbish, wrapple.”
You’ve got an expectation of what you’re going to get and that’s what
branding is all about. With Apple, it’s all about the experience, so you know
when you buy an Apple product when you open that box, it’s going to be an
It’s is, isn’t it?
Yeah and that’s all intentional and if they were to do something that went
against that, that little box in your head is going to slightly change. So that’s
branding and that’s where…
Yeah, it’s nice.
.. everything to do with brand identity and inner messaging and stuff like
that, that’s why it matters. Because if it doesn’t align with the expectations of
your customers, then the opinion of your business is going to go down in the
mind of those people.
And you’re so right, it’s, it makes you want to go and buy an Apple product
just for the experience of unwrapping it.
Yeah, yeah exactly. It’s like everything to do with Apple, you know when you
go on their website…
.. you know that’s going to be the best damn website online and..
… it’s nice and easy so they’ve obviously got all of these values at the heart of,
it might just be a piece of paper that lists these things out but everyone that’s
working on that business knows what the expectation should be and
everyone that’s working on anything for them. If there was one person that’s
kind of telling everyone what they should be, everyone knows because those
values are communicated across the board.
That’s fantastic. That’s great and thanks for that, it highlights just the
importance of logo, branding and the messaging and what it’s saying of your
business. I’m conscious of the time Ian and I know it’s quite late where you
That’s alright, don’t stress.
Yeah. Something I do like to ask everyone when they and I thank you for
staying up with us. Something I do like to ask our guests when they come
onto the show is something that’s working for you in your business at the
moment. And that can be like a productivity app or something that, or it
might be an app or something that you’re using at the moment, or a
marketing tip. Is there something that you’re finding working particularly
well in your business at the moment?
I would probably say SEO and what that stands for Search Engine
Optimisation. I’ve focused on building content on my website to rank on
Google and I can talk about that for a long time but to keep this short and to
the point is, a good way of starting to increase your rankings on Google is to
get backlinks from different companies. And I found at the beginning, I used
to do guest blogs, so you can write for someone else and you get that blog
post published on their site and you can get links within that.
Obviously, if you’re like me and writing a good piece of content takes you
almost an entire day. But I’ve started doing a lot more podcast interviews like
this one now and a lot of the time, not every time, it’s not always guaranteed.
But a lot of the time that person will do show notes. Those show notes are
going on their website and the show notes will probably have a link, so if you
want to build up good quality links and you don’t want to spend too much
time doing it, start networking with people that are doing podcasts and try
and be a guest and try and give value in that way. Where in the instances
where blog posts can take like a day, in my case, I can do an interview and it
takes about two hours and I get the same, I get the backlinks still.
And in the process, not only are you getting links you’re also exposing
yourself to an audience as well who could potentially become members of
your communities or clients, or whatever. So it’s kind of like a win-win. So
personally I’ve been trying to, it’s not always been on purpose, like at the
beginning, a lot of the time it was, I’ve actually been invited but because I’ve
noticed I get the links and that, I’m trying to proactively keep doing
interviews as much as I can. Because it helps me to get more confident and
comfortable speaking but also from an SEO perspective, I get that link too.
So my advice would be if you want to get backlinks and you take too long at
writing, just start speaking to people, doing interviews like I am now and just.
It’s daunting at first but just do it and don’t worry too much how it’s going to
You’ve got to trust the person that’s going to be editing it to make you sound
Yeah, that’s it too. And they’re a lot of fun too, well I’ve enjoyed our chat
Yeah. I mean it’s good, there’s so many benefits to doing interviews. Like it’s
good for networking like I’ve been able to spend time with you, we’ve been
speaking online on and off just on Facebook messenger and now we’re finally,
actually chatting and…
Yeah, it’s cool.
There’s just so many benefits to it, so if you are in a business, start telling your
story and you build an audience and that way it doesn’t take too much time.
Yeah, no that’s excellent. And backlinks are one of those things too that you
can’t, they are important because it’s, it tells Google that hey you’re a place to
go so they’ll rank you higher, isn’t it? Basically how it works, the more
locations your domain name or website address is in..
.. the more important Google sees you and wants to push you up higher.
Yeah, I mean there’s a lot to Google and I can talk about an entire day but one
big component is links from external domains that are relevant and
authoritative. And the more that you have of those, then the better and doing
interviews and hopefully getting a link from that in some ways. Not only have
you been able to speak to an audience as well and share your story and
inspire people but from an SEO perspective, you’re getting a win as well.
Nice. No, it’s fantastic, well thank you for sharing that, that’s very good. And
thanks again for coming on the show today, I’m really, really wrapped that we
could finally catch up and talk.
Yes absolutely, it’s good to finally speak.
But yeah it’s been great so if people want to find out more about you Ian,
where would they, where’s the best place to go? Twitter I suppose?
To be honest, if you just do a Google search for ‘Logo Geek’, you’ll probably
find my website which is www.logogeek.uk and yeah if you’re wanting to
keep up to date on what I’m doing, you can follow me on Twitter, which is
@logo_geek. You can also find me on places like Facebook but just think ‘Logo
Geek’ and if you ever need anything like logos or if you ever just want to chat
about your business and anyway, I’m more than happy to share some tips and
Fantastic, well thank you. That’s it and I’ll put all the links and resources that
Ian has mentioned today in the interview, I’ll make sure they’re over on
www.businessmadeeasypodcast.com website and you’ll be able to get all the
links. Including the link to the book that Ian mentioned too, which was ‘Zag’
and any other links that we’ve spoken about as well. Thanks, Ian again for
coming on the show mate and…
.. we’ll talk very soon.
Yeah okay. Thank you very much, it’s been great to be on here.
Thanks mate, bye.
There you have it guys, that’s Ian Paget and he certainly knows his stuff. He’s
a great guy and we had a lengthy chat, even after that interview we spoke for
a few hours about all things business and I’ll definitely have Ian back on the
show again at some point in the future. But check him out at
www.logogeek.uk and if you’ve got any questions regarding branding or logo,
he certainly is a whiz when it comes to that.
Well, that’s all I’ve got time for today, thank you so much for joining me. If you
haven’t already, we do have a Facebook group which is growing quite nicely
and very active. There’s a lot of people over there in business that are
contributing over there and asking questions and helping each other so if you
are interested in joining that group, by all means feel free to go to
www.businessmadeeasypodcast.com/facebookgroupand that URL, I’ll put a
link in the show notes as well but you can click on that, it’s free to join and
yeah as I say, a great supportive community over there, talking business and
helping each other out. And remember, it is free to join. The only criteria is
that you’re supportive and interested in being in business and growing your
business because as we all are.
That’s all I’ve got time for this week, thank you, I’m going to hand you over to
Mia. I do appreciate you and I hope you have a very successful week kicking
some goals before Christmas. Without further ado, I’ll let Mia take us out,
take us away Mia.
Thanks, Jason. You’ve been listening to the ‘Business Made Easy’ podcast,
where we make business easy.